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#1 Throne

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 04:28 PM

This is a great read and just solidifies my belief that Dan Marino is still the best all-time passer.


What John Elway Really did Forty-Seven Times in His Career
Posted by scott_k on November 30, 2010
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This is a guest post by Scott Kacsmar. Thanks to Scott for sharing his comeback data with us on the site. A complete list of comebacks for quarterbacks is available on their player pages linked just above their passing stats. (Sean Forman)

When Brett Favre produces a comeback victory, the sports world is a flutter with excitement. Highlight reels of the winning drive are shown ad nauseam. Mariucci cries. Madden sweats. The sales of Crocs go up. Nothing says "Brett Favre's just having fun out there" more than a signature comeback win.

You are probably wondering why I am talking about Favre instead of John Elway. In case you missed it, Favre produced a 14-point comeback win in week 9 over the Cardinals for a thrilling 27-24 overtime victory, in which he passed for a career-high 446 yards. It was an unusual game as not only did Favre pass for more than 400 yards for just the second time in his 20-year career, but it was also the second time he has led a fourth quarter comeback from a deficit of more than 10 points. The last time he did that was his very first comeback win, the infamous 1992 game against Cincinnati when he replaced Don Majkowski and has started every game since. The difference is Favre was helped with a punt return TD that day. Against Arizona, Favre did all the heavy-lifting with two TD drives late in the final quarter.

Unfortunately the media was quick to call this the "46th comeback win" in Favre's career, meaning it could only be a matter of time before Favre is compared to Elway and the myth of 47. With permanent retirement following this season actually looking like a viable option for Favre, he may only have five games left to do it.

Except with Favre, these moments do come too few and far between. What mark would he actually set with another comeback win? He would have 31 in his career; enough to tie him with Joe Montana, but still trailing Elway (34), Johnny Unitas (34), Peyton Manning (35) and Dan Marino (36). As it stands, the Arizona win was Favre's 30th comeback victory. But more on Favre later.

Speaking of inflated comeback totals, NFL Films recently did a great ten-part mini-series on The Top 100 Greatest Players. Of the nineteen quarterbacks on the list, only Roger Staubach and Elway had numerical references to their ability to lead comebacks.

Staubach came in at #46. Over a year ago I mentioned Staubach had always been credited with 23 comebacks, but actually had 15. When the NFL Network did their "Top 10 Dallas Cowboys", they used the 23 number for Staubach. As I watched the video presentation of Staubach on the Top 100, it felt like a personal triumph when narrator Peter Coyote said "during an eleven-year NFL career Staubach led fifteen fourth quarter comeback victories." Fifteen. They got it. I had to rewind the DVR to make sure I heard it right. After all the years of sources as high as the Dallas Cowboys themselves saying 23, after using 23 on a recent top 10 show, they got it right with 15.

Naturally, I had high expectations for what was to come with Marino and Elway. If they can use 15 for Staubach, why not get the numbers right for those guys too?

Unfortunately, what happened made things worse. Watching the episode with players ranked 30-21, I did not expect to see the likes of Marino and Elway that low. Marino came in at #25 with no mention to his fourth quarter numbers. After John Hannah at #24, the program referenced the "king of comebacks" coming up next after commercial. I immediately groaned because I knew what was coming. Sure enough, after an intro by Marty Schottenheimer, the first thing out of the narrator's mouth is Elway and his "record" 47 comebacks.

I have to admit I was ticked off at that moment. How can you properly give Staubach 15 and then give Elway his inflated number of 47? That makes things look even worse. If you were watching this with no idea of the numbers, you would think "wow, Elway had 32 MORE comebacks than Captain Comeback? That's incredible!" The NFL contends there is no "official" record, yet the myth of 47 stands.

I will end the suspense now. Thanks to some new data I was able to research, I am going to give a new meaning to 47 for Elway.

What did John Elway really do forty-seven times in his career?

Forty-seven times he had the ball in the fourth quarter, down by one score, and did not win the game.

The famous number the Broncos used to represent his triumphs actually equals the amount of failures he endured. If that is not the definition of irony...

Ever since I first wrote about comebacks people wanted to see the opportunities, what the real comeback percentage was. It reminds me of the Michael Jordan Nike commercial where he talks about how many times he missed the game-winning shot. I completely understand. My response has always been that a lack of data makes it hard to do that for a large portion of NFL history. I have also stressed that the numbers of wins and losses do not give a full picture of the individual performance.

Comebacks/game-winning drives are just like other stats in football. Some are bigger or more impressive than others, such as a one-yard TD plunge versus an 80 yard scamper by Barry Sanders. Sometimes you get credit when you do not deserve it. Sometimes you get blame when you do not deserve it, similar to a dropped pass that turns into an interception for a QB. Stats can be deceiving (especially ones that are not standardized).

This gives Elway a record of 34-46-1 (.426) when trailing in the fourth quarter by one score with possession. That does not mean John Elway failed 47 times. The Broncos failed 47 times (you can find a list of these games at the end). On eight different occasions Elway led a go ahead scoring drive that would have given him a comeback win, but the defense surrendered the lead and they lost. That would be eight "lost comebacks", a relatively high number that would have given him 42 comeback wins. Several other times (seven to be exact) he led Denver into field goal range for a tying or winning kick and the kicker missed, also costing him potential 4QC/GWD's.

How does Elway's record of 34-46-1 stack up? I gathered the same data for Dan Marino and the results are eerily similar. Marino's record was 36-46 (.439), and he had seven lost comebacks. There was also another game, that I detailed in part 1, where Marino did have one possession in the fourth quarter down by a score, and he did not get any points. After the defense took the lead on an interception return, Marino later, with the game tied, led a game-winning FG drive. It was not a comeback win, but technically it is not a comeback loss either so I just keep games like this duly noted.

With Elway and Marino so close in record, how does Brett Favre measure up?

First, here's a post-Arizona game quote from Brett Favre on his play in crunch time:
"I feel like I flourish in those situations, maybe because of my mechanics or I'm willing to take chances maybe where other guys wouldn't," Favre said. "My track record has proven that. At that point in the game, you've got no other choice but to take chances. I feel like that's been my forte throughout my career."

I am willing to bet Favre a large sum of money (how does $20M sound?) that he has no idea what his track record actually is when it comes to making comebacks. Fortunately I am able to compile that. Unfortunately for Brett, the results are not pretty.

Favre's track record: 30-72 (.294), 9 lost comebacks, and 2 other games of note that were won on return TDs

Ouch. The worst part? 45 interceptions and 9 lost fumbles in those 72 losses (173 drives). That is almost one in every three drives ending with a Favre turnover. At the very least, Favre is absolutely right when he says he is willing to take chances.

Below is a table of stats for Favre, Elway and Marino.

* I included all their 4th quarter drives, whether they were trying to make a comeback or GWD, and whether or not the drive ended in points.
* Stats are only from drives with the game tied or a one score deficit.
* Playoffs included.
* Overtime included.
* Some stats will be from the 3rd quarter as long as the drive carried over into the 4th quarter of course.
* I gave splits between wins and losses to further show the degree of success and failure.
* Totals are there as well, and include Elway's tie plus Favre's two "other" games.
* Fumbles only include lost fumbles by the QB.
* Avg. time is an average of the time left in the game when the drive started.

QB Type GP Att Cmp Pct. Yds YPA TD INT Rating Sk Yds Rush Yds TD Fum Avg. Time Drives Pts/Drive Yds/Drive TO/Drive
John Elway Wins 49 357 236 66.1 3380 9.47 19 3 110.9 12 106 33 153 2 2 9:09 100 3.42 44.5 0.05
John Elway Losses 51 444 234 52.7 2532 5.70 6 19 56.4 42 302 48 276 3 6 7:43 132 0.91 24.2 0.19
John Elway Total 101 822 483 58.8 6015 7.32 25 23 80.0 54 408 84 452 5 8 8:16 238 1.97 33.0 0.13
Dan Marino Wins 51 438 285 65.1 3907 8.92 27 8 106.4 11 72 11 34 0 1 9:14 109 3.48 45.3 0.08
Dan Marino Losses 50 417 221 53.0 2691 6.45 12 15 67.7 17 123 10 44 0 4 8:30 108 1.28 28.9 0.18
Dan Marino Total 101 855 506 59.2 6598 7.72 39 23 87.6 28 195 21 78 0 5 8:52 217 2.38 37.1 0.13
Brett Favre Wins 46 400 250 62.5 3426 8.57 20 8 98.2 20 118 25 95 2 1 8:36 109 2.84 39.6 0.08
Brett Favre Losses 75 629 342 54.4 3885 6.18 9 46 47.4 39 270 15 68 0 9 8:34 179 0.95 27.1 0.31
Brett Favre Total 123 1037 594 57.3 7328 7.07 29 54 66.9 60 400 40 163 2 10 8:35 292 1.64 31.5 0.22

When looking at the totals, Marino comes out on top statistically in practically every area that does not include running with the ball. Elway is comparable, while Favre leaves a lot to be desired. The large differentials in stats between wins and losses for all three are not much different than the usual drop you get from career wins and losses. Quarterbacks that play well usually win, and those that do not usually lose. The difference perhaps being larger here can probably be explained best by the limited sample size of drives and that success and failure late in the game is usually well-defined (lots of pass-productive scoring drives or QB turnovers).

Finally (because what good is something without proof?), here is the list of 47 games John Elway was unable to win in the 4th QT/OT (I placed an asterisk with the 8 lost comebacks):

LostCB Date Opp Outcome

9/18/1983 PHI L 13-10
* 11/13/1983 RAI (A) L 22-20

11/25/1984 SEA L 27-24

12/2/1984 KC (A) L 16-13

12/30/1984 PIT L 24-17

9/8/1985 RAM (A) L 20-16

9/29/1985 MIA L 30-26

11/24/1985 RAI (A) L 31-28 OT

11/9/1986 SD L 9-3

11/23/1986 NYG (A) L 19-16

9/20/1987 GB (A) T 17-17 OT

11/8/1987 BUF (A) L 21-14

9/18/1988 KC (A) L 20-13

12/4/1988 RAI (A) L 21-20

10/1/1989 CLE (A) L 16-13
* 10/29/1989 PHI L 28-24

12/10/1989 NYG L 14-7

9/9/1990 RAI (A) L 14-9

9/30/1990 BUF (A) L 29-28
* 10/8/1990 CLE L 30-29

11/18/1990 CHI L 16-13 OT

11/22/1990 DET (A) L 40-27

12/2/1990 RAI L 23-20

12/23/1990 SEA (A) L 17-12

9/8/1991 RAI (A) L 16-13

11/10/1991 RAI L 17-16

11/24/1991 SEA (A) L 13-10

10/25/1992 SD (A) L 24-21

10/10/1993 GB (A) L 30-27
* 10/18/1993 RAI L 23-20

11/14/1993 MIN L 26-23

12/26/1993 TB L 17-10
* 9/4/1994 SD L 37-34

9/11/1994 NYJ (A) L 25-22 OT

9/26/1994 BUF (A) L 27-20
* 10/17/1994 KC L 31-28

11/6/1994 RAM (A) L 27-21

9/24/1995 SD (A) L 17-6

12/10/1995 SEA L 31-27

12/17/1995 KC (A) L 20-17

9/22/1996 KC (A) L 17-14

10/19/1997 RAI (A) L 28-25
* 11/16/1997 KC (A) L 24-22

12/07/1997 PIT (A) L 35-24

12/15/1997 SF (A) L 34-17
* 12/13/1998 NYG (A) L 20-16

12/21/1998 MIA (A) L 31-21

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#2 Delmar

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 08:02 AM

Any way you cut it, Marino has (I should say had) a great arm, great aim and a great ability to read the field.  Montana, Elway and several others also had that trio of skills which prove deadly to defenses.  A precise passer who can also throw the long ball can be completely demoralizing to an opponent, instilling a sense of inevitability in a defense that, even though they may be ahead in the closing minutes, they can sense the imposing inevitability of a last second comeback.

Regardless of any one particular stat, I would take John Elway over any other quarterback when push comes to shove, the game on the line and two minutes or less to go.

His abilities are comparable to any other quarterback you can name.  He's got the arm and the head for moving the team quickly through the air.  He's got the legs for scrambling out of trouble.  He's got the mystique for making magic happen, which demoralizes defenses.

lol, before someone throws a block of stats (or other types of blocks at me), I readily admit that the Broncos and Jets are my two favorite teams and I grew up loving Elway.  I am clearly biased, but the stats are there to support my choice, as well.

Speaking of quarterbacks and incredible comebacks...my man Sanchez has been fantastic this year.  I couldn't believe the improvement from last year, and his ability to avoid taking sacks has been unbelievable over the last several games.

I can't wait to watch my Jets (yes, when you've suffered with a franchise like I have with the Jets for decades, you earn imaginary ownership interest) take on the Evil Empire known as the Patriots.  The Jets have been beaten (on the field), bloodied (in giving up draft picks for Patriot coaches) and bamboozled (too many examples of this, from Belachek to spying).  After rolling over the Colts, the Pats deserve to be brought down!

Okay...I admit I'm pretty bitter when it comes to the Pats.  But I can live with that ;)
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#3 Throne

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 03:51 PM

Must have been a rough night on Monday for ya Delmar.....hope you're feeling better by now.  ;)
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#4 Delmar

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 09:23 PM

Rough night?  that's quite an understatement.  It was an embarrassment.  I don't know when I last saw a team completely collapse in all areas of the game.  At one point, Sanchez threw three interceptions in six pass attempts!  From fumbles, to interceptions, to a defense that was dissected, to botched punts, to dropped passes, to blown routes, to blown coverages, the Jets covered all the bases in their complete ineptitude.

And it wasn't just poor execution of a well-coached gameplan.  What happened to pressuring the QB?  Three man rushes against Brady?  Are they insane?  on many plays, he had enough time to lay down and take a nap before having to throw the ball or move out of the pocket!  Though it meant nothing in this particular game, the use of challenges by the Jets was unwise and thoughtless.

Overall, the worst game for the Jets that I've seen in recent memory...and I've seen some pretty terrible games over the years.  Usually, losses like this send the team into a nose-dive.  I'll be interested to see how much heart this team has over the next few weeks.

My final thought on the game:

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